News24 spoke to ActionSA leader Herman Mashaba this week about the government's response to the spaza shops and zama zamas - which has turned into a national discussion about foreign nationals.
Mashaba and his party have historically taken a hardline stance on foreign nationals and, in this interview, he categorically states that President Cyril Ramaphosa should have "announced the immediate deportation of people into our country".
Muhammad Hussain explored his views and also ask if he is concerned that this rhetoric, from him and other politicians, will lead to xenophobic action - as seen before in South Africa.
What do you make of the spaza shop and zama-zama issue currently playing out?
I'm sure you are aware these two issues I raised them a lot when I was the mayor of the City of Johannesburg. I actually warned South Africans about the destruction of black entrepreneurs in the townships because of these illegal foreigners operating illegally in our townships, with us having no knowledge of how they came into our country, how they brought the money into their country.
So these two issues I have really been raising them for a long time, that if we're not going to do anything about it as a country then one day we'll pay a price, including raising the issue of the bringing in the counterfeit and expired goods.
I warned South Africa in lots of interviews that the health inspectors were asking me for my intervention because of also not getting support from the national government, that some of the food brought into this country will one day create a health hazard for South Africa.
As you say, you and others who have been in government structures have raised this issue, but it still seems there was no proactive approach and rather a reactionary approach.
I fully agree with that including the president's Friday address to the nation. I believe he really squandered a huge opportunity to really listen for one and to listen to the cries of the poor communities affected by this illegality.
We expected the president to have actually announced the immediate deportation of people into our country illegally and being involved in criminal activity. Unfortunately, he's talking about actually legalising them.
I don't understand how the president does think that this country is going to legalise illegality.
The president also said that it is not only foreign nationals' spaza shops, but locally-owned spaza shops that have poisoned, counterfeit and expired items. So why is your solution deportation when the issue is not only limited to foreign nationals, and that of government's lack of effective response to regulation and monitoring of spaza shops in general?
Well, illegal foreigners are the biggest problem for South Africa. If you go into any poor community in the township, villages and informal settlements, I can tell you that 90% of spaza shops are run by foreign nationals.
So, I think the president probably lives in a different world than the one I live in.
I grew up with people running spaza shops in our communities which never used to really kill us. But right now, with the chaos compounded by the number of illegal foreigners involved in criminality, the president must not actually run away from this issue. Let him provide leadership and actually confront the issue that's facing South Africa right now.
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This 90% you mention, is that a stat from…
I'm saying more than 90%, if not all. I challenge anyone to show me who's running a spaza shop that they've invested R5 million into our country. By saying 90%, I am being really progressive.
But to clarify, is this anecdotal or research, or from a report?
I don't need reports when I've got eyes to see on a daily basis criminals operating in our communities without following the laws of our country. I don't need any research by anyone there to protect the criminality in my country.
If they argue with me and think I'm unfair, then let them prove, let them come out with the facts. If they think they are clever enough, they believe in facts, please ask them to show us just one of them who brought R5 million investment in my country.
ActionSA Mayor of Tshwane Nasiphi Moya has already said on X that her government will only allow South Africans to register their spaza shops. That seems to go against what the president said.
Well, I don't think anyone must respect the president who does not really care about South Africans. The mayor of Tshwane is there to put the people of South Africa first, and we are not going to apologise to anyone about it.
ActionSA's response is to introduce a new bill called Spaza4Locals, right?
That's right, our team in Parliament have proposed the private members bill to ensure that spaza shops are 100% owned by South Africans.
READ | Mamphela Ramphele: Xenophobia is a symptom of governance failures
Isn't that anti-capitalist and against the free-market core principles, that by excluding legal foreign nationals, the market becomes smaller?
Capitalism has got absolutely nothing to do with chaos and illegality. If you want capitalism to flourish and save the country, you need the rule of law so we must not conflate the two.
Criminality is criminality and no capitalist system will ever flourish in an environment of chaos.
So, if you really want to be regarded as a legal foreigner, then prove to us that you came into the country legally, firstly, and secondly, as per the laws of this country, show us you've brought in a minimum of R5 million investment.
I still need someone to show me anyone who brought in this R5 million investment. For you to be in the country legally and run a business, you must have a minimum of R5 million investment, not people bringing money through mattresses like our president.
The R5 million you talk about is for business visas. Whereas courts have said some foreign nationals are allowed to trade - like refugees and asylum seekers. But your proposed bill still excludes all foreign nationals.
Muhammad, if you claim to be in the country and show us how you acquired your citizenship and what skills you are bringing to run a spaza shop in South Africa - the laws of this country do not allow for that kind of nonsense.
So you can't really come from Pakistan to come and tell us you are bringing the skill of coming to open a spaza shop, without showing us how you acquired your citizenship, how you account for the money you are running the spaza shop with.
Let's not conflate the two - criminality is criminality, and if we want our country to succeed, we must really be unapologetic about fighting against criminality, and ActionSA will never defend it.
Are you concerned that the rhetoric by many politicians in the country and some in government will legitimise xenophobic action by communities?
No, I'm actually really proud that South Africans are free now to talk about this particular matter. The only thing I will ask them to do is not to take the law into their own hands, let them vote the political parties that support illegality.
But groups like Operation Dudula are already taking action…
Yes, because they are forced by the government to take the law into their own hands.
That's why we have called on government of Cyril Ramaphosa and others before him to ensure they respect the rule of law, because if not people take the law into their own hands and you can't really blame them for it.
The issue of foreign nationals seems to have become a scapegoat for government's systemic and historic failures at all levels, including your own in Johannesburg. Do you think this issue is just an easy scapegoat?
It is not a scapegoat. I think, honestly Muhammad, anyone who can tell us the issue of illegal foreigners is a scapegoat, it's honestly an insult to South Africans - and you can quote me on that.
Anyone who actually says so is insulting us as South Africans.
It's a real issue that cannot really be ignored, and I encourage South Africans to not be silenced by people who insult us and think that we will be silenced.
We are not going to be silenced by people who are not affected by this. Go in to the townships, go in to the villages and informal settlements, and go and talk to those people who have to really live with this.
People living in leafy suburbs who are not affected by this, telling us that it's an excuse. That is not an excuse. This is a living experience of South Africans.
